Ep 6: Trust & the Individual

Speaker 0 (2m 23s): Well, be that as it may. And I, for one, I’m quite re relate to know that you pay your, your sheriff taxes here in the U S I want to tee up our first workplace champions and it happens to be a CFO. Her name is Arlene Palla Dino, and she built her career in a company that will be celebrating 200 years next year. That’s right. It’s bicentennial. It’s known as Crum and Forster, and it’s an insurance brokerage firm.

She joined in the early eighties. I think it was her first job right out college. So she really did grow up with the firm. She has been there for over 40 years and she went into the entered the CFO office only a few years ago. So it’s a wonderful climb for her. And I know you’re going to enjoy both clips. I should mention, by the way, you know, Brett is, is Canadian when he refers to late April. And again, that’s one, we’re recording this episode as winter didn’t he just did that. Interesting.

Alright, Brett, I’m gonna, I think you’ll enjoy this. I’m going to have two separate clips. I’ll put a wish between them. So please know that she’s not, this is not just one thought she’s gonna sort of share two, two separate takes from our interview. This is Arlene Palomino, CFO of Crum and Forster.

Speaker 3 (3m 56s): It’s really like a family to me, to be quite honest. I, when I started, I was 21 years old and a lot of the people that I started with also remained with the organization. It’s not one that, especially in the finance arena, that we had a lot of turnover. So it’s a great company. I, I benefited a lot. I, I, when I got married and then had children, I was afforded the opportunity to go on reduced hours. I will emphasize that it wasn’t a reduced job when I was on reduced hours.

I did it from the time my younger son was three and he’s now 22. My older son was five. He’s now 24. And I did it to really get the best work-life balance possible for myself. And I had a CFO at the time who I thought would not want me to reduce my hours. So I had a very candid conversation with her and explained my situation that the boys were getting older and I really needed to be more involved in their upbringing. And I wanted to go to the school and participate in school events and so forth.

And she, she just said, well, you’re not going anywhere. You need to stay. I’m not going to let you leave. You can just tell me what you want to work. And those will be the hours that you work. So I think part of the, part of the draw for me has been to be able to have that work-life balance through the years, I look at our culture, the culture supports that I have a team now of mostly guys, but I really encourage them to go to their son’s game. Don’t miss out on the experiences that are very important to you personally.

And I think Crum and Forster has given all of us that opportunity with its strong culture. So one thing I’d like to point out is that I think management styles have evolved through the years since I started, I worked for under back in the day. In the old days, it was kind of like you were, you just were a tool that they would use to get the ultimate deliverable.

And it really didn’t matter how they got there. So it wasn’t a warm and fuzzy environment. We used to joke that as long as we weren’t getting yelled at, we were doing a good job because we certainly didn’t get any, any positive feedback back then. But I think my style has adapted as the years, have progressed to recognize the importance of having a more personal acknowledgement of what, what the group that you’re leading does and what their objectives are. I, I know about their family situations, you know, during COVID, it’s been different, but we still communicate a lot.

We still have our weekly staff meetings, our weekly one-on-ones. We meet regularly on WebEx instead of in person. And I do miss seeing them physically in person. You’ll notice that I’ve I’m in my office today. So we’ve just started a soft opening here. And one of the guys that reports into me, he and I are going to have a, a one-on-one together, which hasn’t happened in a year. So it’s, it’s nice to start slowly weaving that back in.

I will say that the company was not one that had a large remote workforce historically, and with the pandemic, we moved to work from home virtually overnight. It was amazing. We were in here on a Friday and on the Monday, we were all sitting at our home desks with our laptops, for those employees that didn’t have that technology. We sent it out immediately within a week. Everybody was up and running.

So while the pandemic has presented challenges, I haven’t seen anything that’s affected productivity and organizationally we’ve seen how well the remote work has worked. And we’ve recently rolled out a highly flexible program to let our employees choose if they want to work exclusively from home with their supervisor’s approval, if they want to come exclusively into the office or any combination in between. So the employees value that.

And it’s the culture of trust that has really enabled us to, to get that level of satisfaction from our employees yet not lose anything organizationally to meet our business objectives.

Speaker 0 (8m 44s): You know, as I, as I was listening to this, when we were speaking to her, I knew I wanted to share this just because I thought how interesting this she built career in this one company, this, this, again, it’ll be 200 years, but roughly a quarter of that is the time she built her career businesses on doubtedly went over more change in the last 50 years than the first hundred and 50 years of that company. I have to imagine. But anyway, Brett, I just wanted to share with you again, just such a unique perspective that she has it’s unusual today.

Speaker 2 (9m 24s): Well, I think it’s interesting, the context of change in organizations from where we’ve been to where we are, and I must be about the same age as Arlene cause my kids are about the same age as hers and the story she tells. Like I loved her quote, as long as you weren’t getting yelled at, you’re doing a good job. That was the first 20 years of my career. So I can really relate to what she said. And I think it’s a good anchor to help us see how much has changed. In fact, I would argue that there’s been more change in those 40 years than there have been, you know, in the last 40 years as it were, you know, in a recent chunk of time, just the whole change in how we think about employees and, and how we communicate for her to go to her boss and talk about wanting time off to spend time with our kids was literally heresy.

Like back then, that was like a fireable offense. You know, women used to not tell people that they were pregnant because they’re afraid they’d get fired right away. And it sounds crazy when we describe it now. And that’s the change, that’s the change that’s happened from then to now. And I think it’s great hearing her story because she’s obviously a pioneer on that journey.

Speaker 0 (10m 41s): I fully agree. And I should mention that during our interview, I thought there was something of a mystery maybe as to how she finally arrives in the CFO office. Again, she was internal audit. She came up through the ranks there for many years, but where did she acquire her leadership skills now? And I, and I, I make a point during our interview. I tell her that I, I, I imagine she’s a wonderful manager. She’s really a people person.

I think the interview reveals that, but w when does she emerge as a leader in how, in what she shared, I thought was very interesting during Sarbanes-Oxley when the company really suddenly found all these compliance challenges across the enterprise, she really became the point person for much of that work, I believe. And as she explained it, she was summoned to board meetings. Suddenly she was presenting to board level executives and speaking to them and sharing with them, the approaches that had to be taken.

And that’s what she shared. And I think she’s spot on. That’s where she acquired the ability to speak and, and address business challenges at a level she hadn’t in the past. So anyway, just wanted to share that out. What else, Brett, what else intrigues you here?

Speaker 2 (12m 5s): I would add two things. One is, yeah, there’s no question that those burning platforms are the catalyst for change. So the first part of our story was just the evolution of a woman in the workplace and the maturing of how we deal with our coworkers, but things like socks are big catalysts. And it’s interesting that you begin to build that muscle where when events like that happen, they become less and less significant. You almost expect them to happen.

And when they do happen, you can deal with them with great ease. And so the third story is all about that re you know, the, the COVID and her fact, you know, her statement of Friday, we’re in the office Monday, we’re working at home, right. And it was seamless. Now, it wouldn’t have been seamless if she didn’t have, you know, the trauma of her early career, the trauma of things like Sox, but we all in our careers begin to learn how to manage with change. What’s interesting about her story is it’s managing to change through human capital.

Each one of those events you could describe in different ways, but she described it through people.

Speaker 0 (13m 15s): Exactly. Wow, wonderful point. And by the way, she did mention they will be having something of a celebration next year, of course, for the, for the 200 years

Speaker 2 (13m 28s): Also my background, you know, being a Brit, our expression in the UK is you Americans think that 250 years is a long time. And we think 250 miles is a long way. So the fact that coming fosters 200 years old, you know, that’s only as old as the new roof on the pub. Okay. So it’s, you know, it’s all relative.

Speaker 0 (13m 53s): Well, dear listeners, we know you come for the human capital insight, but yes, stay for moments like that. All right, I’m going to tee up our next CFO. We will next be hearing the voice of guy Blanchard, CFO of arrow farms. Now arrow farms is a vertical farming company, and he’ll explain upfront exactly what they specialize in Hinton, lettuce, greens, et cetera.

It’s an interesting concept. I know very little about, but you’ll be happy. He brings up, okay. Ours, Brett. And he has quite a workforce philosophy, which I knew we had to share with this audience. And so this is guy Blanchard, CFO of arrow farms.

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Speaker 6 (14m 59s): I’m growing and selling leafy greens to these retailers, to these distribution channels. And these are leafy greens that you buy in. Clamshells at a store. These are the most amazing leafy greens that are available. They’re clean, pesticide-free herbicide, free taste and texture that never had before. And customers love our product and buy a lot of it. So this is an enormous market right now is dominated by field farming and is ripe with the inefficiencies and field farming for, for change.

So our product is sold at the same price point as organic field farm product and stores and offers a greater customer value. I talked to earlier about our focus on modeling or focus on economics and understanding what matters, but that in isolation, doesn’t build a great business. What really allows us to build a business are the people that come in and getting these amazing people. And we’re able to attract top people from top schools top within industry, because of they’re attracted to the mission we’re on.

And how do we get those economics fed language that we talked about and make it become part of what everyone is working towards. And I think for me, there’s three pillars that have come to exist for a minute. There, there’s the understanding, the modeling, understanding what we need to do as a business, so that economic needs and communicating that, and those KPIs, a partner to that though, is knowing what we want to do.

What are the goals of the company? What are we setting out to achieve and how are we holding ourselves accountable for that? And we’ve implemented, okay, ours. I know that been talked about on some of your podcasts before, but creating a clear vision of where we’re going in terms of objectives, and then putting the key results of how do we know when we’ve gotten there and then putting the KPIs that are partners with that together is needed for success.

But really perhaps the most important aspect is culture. And here we have what we call our care principles, where it gives people a framework of how to work with each other, our care principles, collaboration, communication, accountability, agility, respect, and perhaps less importantly empowerment. We’re going out. We’re growing this great company and we have this enormous potential of people and getting leadership organized to lead and getting the people under the, in the organization, empowered to go do the things that they can and how

Speaker 2 (17m 51s): In each of those legs for things to work together, I think has been something that’s come together for me here as it hasn’t before in my career. And something that we’re all investing a lot of effort to make a reality, that amazing moment for the company where we’re transforming from being a earlier stage growth company, to building a lot of farms. And we have our Danville Virginia farm breaking ground. This month, we have our other Dobby farm breaking ground, equipping the company to go execute on those projects on time and on budget.

At the same time, we’re moving from being a well-managed private company to a well-managed public company and doing everything that that entails in terms of needing to bolster skill sets around a sec reporting or around activities that as a finance organization and administrative organization, we haven’t had to do before and all the while keeping it a great place to work growing a great profitable company.

Speaker 0 (19m 6s): Well, thank you guy Blanchard, CFO of AeroFarms guys, episode, we’re going to release on CFO thought leader in full next week or the first week of may and Brett, what did you make about? He covers a lot of ground. I have to say in a short, a short interview, but what, what did you make of what he shared here?

Speaker 2 (19m 27s): I was also interested. I was in particularly interested when he went into his model about there being sort of three pillars. And every organization I go to has a number of pillars. Like the architects must love, love businesses. Most of them have like, you know, five pillars. So three kind of got my interest and of course the first one is economic. And as you would expect now, and, and it’s almost like we’ve talked about Jack stock before an open book management. So his first pillars about helping people understand the financial realities of the business thought that was good.

The second one was making sure that we know what we should be doing. And he used, okay, ours is that tool. So again, point number on economic was very, left-brained a lot of numbers and finance, the second one, okay. Ours is a mix between financial and nonfinancial measures and leading lag and all that kind of good stuff. So that was kind of moving to the soft side. And then pillar three was this off site. It was culture. And he earlier on said that he, they can attract people because of their culture.

And then he goes on to describe culture being one of their, their core pillars. And I thought that was interesting because of course he’s in a farming environment and that tends to be, you know, less culture and people centric. So I thought it was interesting that he’s disrupting the market with that mindset.

Speaker 0 (20m 53s): I think it’s clear. He really does have some comfort level of comfort around cultural issues, which not every CFO does and just, he has a label for each of these. So he can reach into his toolkit, whether it’s a, the acronym that he shared with us or the, of the three pillars,

Speaker 2 (21m 11s): Obviously it’s a mantra within the organization. Like he knew care, he could rattle it off. Like he’s not just talking culture. It’s clear that that’s an important aspect of what he sees leadership and leadership responsibilities to be. What’s interesting is he’s using this combination of economic and culture to explain how he’s been better, able to deal with the sec. And, you know, if there’s a link, you know, Arlene was talking about Sox issues.

So, you know, as controllers, we always have to deal with these financial regulations, just a guy’s perspective of we do it through people was quite pleasant to see.

Speaker 0 (21m 56s): Yes. And I think that’s what will emerge here as we go along that theme of people and the individual Arlene kicking things off. And I mentioned, I think she’s very much a people person, anyone who listens to that interview kind of, kind of that registers, however, not every finance leader is. And I want to, I think it’s interesting our next CFO, Mike Rasic CFO of sinaps, but just from the kickoff of our discussion, he is focusing on team building and the individual.

And I think this is, this is certainly a clip worth sharing. This is Mike Razak It seems like collaboration had to be retaught in certain respects. I’m sure you’ve observed it pretty closely and had some thoughts on it. Am I wrong here? What would you share?

Speaker 7 (22m 58s): No, I, I, I think you’re completely right. And I think the burden that it’s placed on managers has been really significant. I think it’s TA it’s forced managers to learn a new tool, a new skill set. That’s really hard. And that is, you know, zoom is fine. Skype is fine, whatever tool you want to use spine, but there’s so much context that gets lost when you’re on a call, as opposed to in-person that you really have to learn how more than ever to listen and to pay attention to body language.

And it’s really hard in a zoom or a Skype or a virtual environment, but just the sheer amount of energy that you have to put into focusing on the people on the other side really has increased. And I think if a manager has assumed that it’s just the same, but nothing is different. Then they’re going to have issues part of my job as a leader. And I’m not just going to focus on being an, a financial leader now, but being a leader, part of that is helping people grow, right?

I mean, everybody on your team, you’re only going to be successful. If your team is successful and your team’s only going to be successful at the individuals on the team are successful. You can only help people be as successful if you know them as individuals, if you know what makes them tick. And in a lot of cases, that can be uncomfortable because what makes them tick. And a lot of cases involves things that are going on in their personal lives. And what that, why that can be uncomfortable is because first you have to be willing to hear that.

And secondly, the hard part about it is you have to build the trust with the person on the other side, to get them, to tell you these things. So you can sit here. I can sit there and Jack, if you’re working with me, I can, all of a sudden say, Jack, something’s not right. You’re not performing the same for whatever reason. And I can ask you that, but you have to trust me enough to tell me, Mike, you know what my son got in a car accident yesterday, and he’s just, it’s really bothering me.

And it’s eating at me, whatever the case may be, but there you have to be a strong enough executive or a strong enough person to develop that level of trust that the person on the other side can share this with you and trust you to help to use it as something that will help as opposed to whether it be being perceived as a weakness or something that would use to get be used against them, or fill in the blank, whatever that person’s thought process

Speaker 0 (26m 5s): Again, that was Mike Rasic, CFO of sinaps and his focus on the individual. It might’ve been part of our discussion a little later in that same interview where we touch on Dale, Carnegie’s making friends and influence people again, it’s so often recommended by our guests. I can’t seem to recall, but that focus on the individual, it was Dale Carnegie. I think you said, you know, have a genuine interest in others and, and Mike so much of what he was sharing.

It just, it brought that to mind, Brett, what did you make of what my chair? I agree.

Speaker 2 (26m 45s): You know, Dale Carnegie has informed so many of us on our thinking about how to work with people. It looks to me what was interesting as he took it a step beyond, right? If you remember, he talked about the importance of collaboration and he described it as a burden, as an extra learning skill that his team needed. And I thought that was interesting that he’s saying there’s a cost involved in genuinely listening and genuinely understanding and being collaborative. And then he went on to say, you know, how, what, we’ve all felt, this zoom fatigue, the zoom issues of we’ve lost that context in how we deal with each other.

And therefore we now have a burden of learning a new skill. Those are my words, not his, what he talked about is learning to listen and learning, to figure out what body language means in a zoom meeting. The other day, I was talking to a prospect and they said, Brett, I’ve got add. He said, nothing has ever been better for me than zoom. He says, because zoom allows me just to focus in on that. One thing I don’t get distracted by other things allows me.

I find that I am super productive in the zoom world. So there’s two sides to this coin, right? We’ve got many people that are used to that broader context and the confusion. And that’s what gives us information about meetings. But there’s another group of people where it’s the opposite. And so what I think is interesting is, you know, Mike’s perspective about, you know, for many of us, it’s, we’ve got to learn to listen differently in zoom meetings, we still have to collaborate. We still have to read body language. You know, we still have to step through in this case, you know, the, the computer screen and understand people’s personal life and have the trust that allows them to share.

So I thought all those points were super important. The most important point was trust. And he, it was like, he just, it was a fly by, but it was all about, if you have trust, you can do these things. And to me, I would, I would put a spotlight on that one word out of what Mike said. Yeah.

Speaker 0 (28m 49s): Yeah. We’ve touched on that. A number of earlier podcasts, as well as there are some reason the workforce and trust at this place in time, trust is become higher in demand. I suppose

Speaker 2 (29m 3s): It is slightly new. I would say. I agree. And the reason I cut you off, I think this is actually a really important point that you’re, you’re hedging towards here. And that is that there’s been a lot of things that have been disruptive to the employee in the last year. Can you spell Covid, but it’s more than just Covid, it’s forced us out of our comfort zone at work. It’s forced us into an uncomfortable work environment. And I’m just saying generally the house wasn’t built for work, everyone’s got some, some chaffing that’s going on as a result of that, but more importantly on this trust issue.

I know from my perspective, I have far less in the politicians than I had before. I’ve been unhappy with how they have dealt with COVID and how I feel like I’m dangling on the end of a rope. They keep on changing the roles and regulations like don’t wear a mask, do wear masks, you know, don’t go out, do, go out and it’s trust, right? So I’m losing trust in the work environment. I’m losing trust in society, the society environment. And so, and even in inside of zoom, we’ve got that, that same thing.

So I think that workers are infused with this trust stress. Maybe we should write a blog post about that. And I think as leaders, we need to be super sensitive to that. And overcompensate, because of all these other stresses in everyone’s lives,

Speaker 0 (30m 32s): Well, trust is one of those subjects. I hope I hope we can do a whole episode on, in the not too distant future. It’s just so interesting to explore it with you. You’ve shared a few comments here. I think a good springboard and thinking of springboards, our next CFO is Ross Tannenbaum of Avalara and a full disclosure. I, I, his comments here, product, me to write an article, which I posted on Forbes earlier in the week, but it’s an expression that he uses.

I know you’re going to pick up on it, Brett as well. I think you’ll, you’ll find how he explains how metrics can reach down into the organization or they need to reach down into the organization. So every individual can understand how they, they fit into the bigger picture. He says it better than I do. This is Ross Tannenbaum, CFO of Avalara.

Speaker 8 (31m 48s): No, you know, it’s funny. I like, okay, ours. And I, I do it in my group. There’s different ways that it’s done, you know, okay. Are some way to, to, to have here’s my strategy. Here’s how we’re going to measure the result. And there’s many different ways to do that. There’s many different tools to do that. And I think people have to find their own and we don’t have a standard yet at Avalara. I think at some point we probably would, but, but, but for me, w with FP and a, you know, one of the key things that we try to do is to, is to foster what you just said, which is how do we drive metrics and accountability deeper down in the organization and my whole career.

I’ve obsessed about what I call for lack of a better word, the macro to micro continuum. Right? And if you think about it at the very top level, when you’re, when you’re working with the board or when you’re doing executive team readouts, we’re looking at financial data at the very top aggregated consolidate level. And it’s often like, how did we do versus how we budget or thought we would do? And if we did better, we feel really good. And if we did worse, it’s like, let’s go figure out why and make a change. And that, that’s just, that’s fine. You’re always going to do that, but that’s a really bad way to do it.

So, so the next level down, if you think about going from the top macro level, all the way down to micro it’s about, okay, what are the KPIs that are really producing those top level results? And the mistakes I’ve seen in the past is you either don’t have the right ones or you have too few, or, or you’ve got too many, often people have too many, there’s 20, there’s 30, there’s all these things that they’re trying to track the drive, the end result. So I just say like, get your five to seven, like we’ve got to get these, right. And again, like I just said with NRL are, we’ve gotta be able to target, you know, how we’re going to improve these and have actual strategies.

OKR is whatever you want to call them. Jack already want to do it. Whatever works best for you to say, okay, these are the seven things that matter most to produce the financials we want. And I am going to have an owner setting targets and making investments to drive those forward, to hit targets that ultimately produce the results. So now you’re talking about it a level down in a way that’s more operational. But what I think is really interesting Jack is when you think about the whole organization, you know, down to the individual, the individual, this is where it gets disconnected.

The individual, you know, like the, the customer, the cam, the customer count manager, they know that they want to keep and grow accounts, but do they understand how that’s connected up through all these metrics into NRR and NRO ultimately produces the financial results and ultimately, you know, drives points of growth on your business, which is valued on a revenue, multiple on a SAS company, which helped drives the stock price. Okay. And I don’t think anybody’s good at this early, early days. It’s how do you connect that bore level, top output?

And when you’re talking about with investors, the individual, all the way down in the organization, who’s looking at like a quota on retention in an upsell, but as not understanding how he or she is connected to everything all the way up the chain, and that that’s what we’re trying to do. And peanut, it starts with decomposing those pieces in NRR, but then it literally goes down individually and helping them understand, Hey, why is this important? Why is this important? Obviously, yes, it’s about growth and retaining customers. That’s a good thing. Everyone gets that, but let me help you understand how you achieving your goals helps us achieve our NRR goals, which helps us grow faster, which helps us then hopefully get a better multiple or however that manifests itself from an investor lens.

And that’s what we’re trying to do, Jack. We don’t have it right. We’re early in that journey. It’s hard to do, but you can do that and

Speaker 2 (35m 38s): Get everyone connected. Then your employee base is entirely aligned from top to bottom. Everyone feels a sense of purpose and are bought into it. And it’s just the way you can perform as management achieve results.

Speaker 0 (35m 60s): Tannenbaum CFO of Avalara. We will feature his interview on CFO thought leader, I believe the second week of may, but this notion that a metric for the individual deep down into the organization that could potentially reveal to the individual where they fit in, in terms of the big picture, their contribution, very powerful. I thought not certain what you make of what Ross shared, but tell us,

Speaker 2 (36m 33s): Right? Yeah. We’ve talked before about Daniel Pink’s book drive and how Daniel Pink’s research indicates that in North America, people are more motivated by intrinsic motivators and extrinsic intrinsic, or how you motivate yourself. Extrinsic is, you know, the, the accolades your boss or coworkers gives you pay intrinsic motivators. There’s five major ones. The one that Ross is talking about here is purpose people. The story is millennials really want to understand their purpose and how they contribute to the corporate.

Good. Now I think all of us want that it’s just the millennials have managed to get a better marketing manager to promote it. But the, the issue is we all want to understand how the work we do ladders up to the great things that the business is trying to do. You know, what are we doing for the business for society and so forth? And what he describes that is, is micro to macro. So the small things you do day to day, how does that ladder up to the overall success of the business? And we’ve all heard a thousand stories of wonderful things that people have done it that, that drive through window, you know, giving a starving person, a hamburger or whatever it might be, and how that ladders up to the overall value set of the business or small business people that hand out food to those in need, outside their door at the end of every day, things like that.

And so he’s just taking that a step further saying that, and he’s using OKR is, is a model, but how do we drive metrics deeper? So he’s saying, how do I do top-down? And then he talks about how do I do a bottom-up, how do I help the employee go back up that game of snakes and ladders to find out how the work they do contributes to that higher purpose?

Speaker 0 (38m 15s): He actually said a lot.

Speaker 2 (38m 18s): Well, he did. He did. And his expression of micro to macro, I think is really clever. I, in fact, I wrote that down on a post-it note. So I’m going to, I’m going to use that forever in the future, because what ends up happening is it’s what’s that, that startled painting pointillism, right? You look at one of those pictures up close, and it’s just a bunch of, of, of, of data points. You step back from it. And now I see the whole picture, the work that we do as employees, or all those little data points, micro, how do I get micro to macro? Whether I do it top down or bottom up.

And again, that’s all about, that’s almost the same story we’ve seen from everyone in this podcast, which is that connection between the economic and the and the individual and the ego. And to me, that’s what was very interesting about what Ross said. And he said it very succinctly.

Speaker 0 (39m 6s): So Brett, we are very much out of time. I should have, we should have stopped five minutes, but we’re having too much fun here. So thank you again for joining us, Brett. And w where are you headed by the way?

Speaker 2 (39m 19s): Well, this week, my adventure next week is going up to Lexington and I got to get there in time for a little pony race and maybe enjoy some of their local bourbon.

Speaker 0 (39m 29s): Well, you got to do a day trip to Louisville then, or, or what don’t I know about my Kentucky geography. Okay.

Speaker 2 (39m 35s): Apparently bourbon is what you don’t know about your Kentucky geography, which is just what we call American whiskey or American scotch. You know, so it’s or sugar. Scotch is what I call dessert. Scott,

Speaker 1 (39m 48s): After you’ve emptied your Canadian club for workplace champions, this is Jack Sweeney with our thought leader, Brett Knowles. Thank you for listening. Hi, it’s Jack. If you haven’t yet subscribed to workplace champions, you’ll find us on Apple podcast.

Or if you’re an Android user, check us out on Spotify. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to workplace champions, a CFO thought leader production.