Ep 8: Building a More Inclusive Culture

Speaker 2 (2m 39s): Up in Canada? We just rotate white bears for brown bears. You know, it was just a seasonal thing, you

Speaker 0 (2m 44s): Know, now what do they eat? Exactly

Speaker 2 (2m 48s): Humans, humans. You have to eat humans, which is why we run faster in the summertime.

Speaker 0 (2m 55s): See you, you came through after all with, with our clever opener. I knew, I knew I could prod it out of you. We’re going to tee up our first human capital thought leader. And we recently have a wonderful episode at CFO thought leader, featuring CFO, Prashant, Mahindra, Raja of ADI, also known as Adelade devices. And I’m going to play the clip and I’ll come back with some more background for you, Brett, but here is CFO Pershant Mahindra Raja.

Speaker 2 (3m 38s): I think about the, the, what is one of the major changes I’ve made to the organization since coming? I would say it’s actually a very strong focus on talent development. And as part of that model of talent development, it is ensuring that finance leaders are really building a business acumen. This is a space I could talk about forever because it’s, I’m deeply passionate about it. So you’ll have to cut me off if I’m going too long. But if I w if I wanted to, to think about what do I view as the role of finance and the, you know, how do you create a culture of employee development?

I would start by saying, you know, as you mentioned, I became a public CFO in my early forties, and I would say the credit for being able to, to move into the role that early goes a hundred percent to some amazing mentors and coaches that I’ve had over my career. So it’s not really possible to go back and thank everyone, but it is possible to ensure that we create the same environment here at ADI to, to nurture and develop organizational leaders for, for, for the future. So when I joined ADI, I rotated everyone on my direct staff.

So everyone who reports to me is in a new job. And it’s only been, as you mentioned, about three and a half years, and some of them are already on their second rotation. Jackie, you’re probably familiar with the, with the 70, 20 10 model. This is it’s, it’s probably like 50 years old from the center of creative leadership that talks about the, the development of employees is 70% driven by the experiences they have. So to accelerate development in an organization, you need to accelerate their exposure to different experiences.

And if I have time, maybe I’ll go through one or two examples. So maybe the first example and an easy one for me was, was a job swap that we recently did at ADI. I have, I have two high potential and high performing women on my staff. One came from a very corporate finance background. She was, she was company treasurer, and the other came from a very deep FP and a BU experience.

We swap to their roles. So it was, it was scary for them. And frankly, a little scary for me. They are, we did this about six months ago. They are still drinking from the fire hose, but, you know, they’re supported by a solid team underneath them. A great set of peers in some cases are our banking relationship partners, you know, step in to help kind of close some of the knowledge gaps and, and it’s, you know, it, it’s, it’s working very well.

I’m very, I’m very happy with how the transition is going, but these moves are not risk-free. And, and I have high confidence that, you know, one or both of them are going to become public CFOs one day, but it is this rotation that helps them get those experiences that need to prepare them for that role.

Speaker 0 (6m 51s): Okay. Again, that was a push auth Mahindra Raja. He’s on our episode, 710 on CFO thought leader, great episode. I hope you’ll make time for it, but right now, Brett, what did you, what did you make about push-off talent mindset?

Speaker 2 (7m 9s): The fact that he proactively rotates people I thought was delightful to see and to think about apprenticeships and job rotations in his particular case was pretty interesting. You know, he presents a stat that, you know, 70% of development comes from your personal experiences. You know, it’s not from textbook, has not from taking your MBA. And the fact that he proactively rotates people, I thought was delightful to see

Speaker 0 (7m 47s): Also, I asked him why wasn’t part of this clip, but I did ask him why it was likely that so many finance leaders were telling us talent development is now one of their top priorities, more so than any time we’ve been doing these interviews. It seems like they’re, they’re saying that. And his response was that he thought perhaps it had to do with how the CEO’s role has just become so crowded and so complex.

He said it better than I did that, that CFOs are really looking to take on some of the areas that had more traditionally, perhaps been the CEO’s responsibilities, such as talent development. What do you, what do you think of that notion?

Speaker 2 (8m 42s): I it’s interesting point. And I took a sneak lesson to some of your interviews because I always liked doing my homework. And I think one of the ones we’re going to lead to is going to give us a better indication of, of that specific issue. But I do think that in total CFOs need to act more CEO, like in other words, no longer can you stick in your silo of only being the financial scorekeeper? You know, the, the complexity of our organizations and the cadence of change requires all of us to have a broad base of enablement across our, what we do.

And, and that’s what he’s talking about. He’s talking about getting that business acumen. So how is a CFO? Can I be aware of the business aspects of financial decisions and not just look at the dollars and cents, right. If, if you looked at that, you know, who’s our hero today? I don’t know Steve jobs, Steve jobs would have never invented the iPhone because that was about, you know, spending a huge amount of money to develop a thing that didn’t even exist. And, you know, you can’t do that.

If you don’t understand the business trade-off or take it a step further, think of the sales rep in the store, the sales rep in the store can sell an apple laptop that he knows how to sell, and the customer knows what to buy or an iPad, whereas no one’s seen before and there’s no bloody keyboard. Well, what’s easier. Well, it’s, it’s, you know, the keyboard and the, and the laptop that everyone’s seen and understands. And so it’s only by understanding the business, the strategy, the opportunity that the iPad has, that the employee can focus on the right things.

That’s not a financial decision. In fact, the finances, the, the commission you pay the sales rep can get in the way. So the idea of helping our finance team develop business argument to see beyond the dollars and cents is a brilliant idea. And you’re only going to do it by throwing them out there with the sharks. They guide them, you know, live and breathe for the ops people, the salespeople, the marketing people, which is why I think that his approach is enlightening. And there is no MBA that does that.

Speaker 0 (10m 57s): Well, I think you’re going to find our next human capital thought leader. Interesting. She is both a CFO, as well as a chief people officer. Now it is a smaller company. It’s a mid-sized company, w we’re double duty over human capital and finance is not that unusual. However, it’s clear. She has a passion for talent and talent development. And well, our, our CFO, chief people officer is Maria of O’Reilly media.

And I’ll key up the clip now for us.

Speaker 3 (11m 46s): So I wear the hat of the chief people officer at a rally as well. So I I’m there. So it’s a pretty clearly defined that I have leadership of our talent strategy, and I partner closely with it with, with members of all across all the teams to make sure that we’re successful at that. We, I mean, as, as, as most companies, we’re in a very competitive, competitive labor market, and we are hiring specifically in roles that are in incredibly high demand engineering roles, product roles, marketing analytics.

So we’re competing with all of these established and, and hot startup companies in Boston, in California, and now across the country on the world, because we’re, we’re highly distributed for the best talent. And so I think that my priority as CFO is to be able to finance a successful talent acquisition and talent retention strategy. And there I am incredibly spoiled and lucky to be able to also have direction of the, of the people strategy function, because then I can make decisions.

I don’t have to negotiate with. I can set priorities that serve both my finance and my HR goals easily, and then obviously discuss them and get buy-in from the rest of the team in terms of what to do. But as a CFO, I’m always mindful of making sure that I can sponsor and I can pay for the investments we need to make. And specifically just making sure that we have an attractive compensation package that includes both cash and equity, making sure that I’m more leaning toward the CP wearing.

Was it the CPO hat on thinking about how our employer value proposition includes things above and beyond comp? And I can tell you that the discussions that we’re having with, with candidates more and more focused about what else we can offer and in social impact comes to mind. I think a lot of people are attracted to will. Riley’s long history of being a community partner and, and wanting to drive impact in the communities we serve. It’s a company that has a 40 year history in making sure that it is inclusive in its efforts to diversify the face of technology.

And we do that not only through hiring diverse talent, but through making sure that our authors, the faces of our authors represent groups that historically have not been represented in technology. I think that me realizing the fact that any company could play a key role in driving social impact within the community, it serves and even outside of the community serves was critical. And, and I think w I can give you two examples when I was working at the jail.

So my first CFO role, we had an opportunity to, it was a Boston-based company. We had an opportunity to set up a manufacturing processing facility in Kentucky, and I know not a very wealthy area of Kentucky. And, you know, something that, that we decided to do right away is to make sure that we would be the employer of choice paying a livable wage in that area and take time to educate, to provide programs that would be, that would have never been needed by our Boston startup community employees, but we’re very much needed there, like financial literacy.

And so I remember the CEO and I partnering to drive workshops to make sure that we structure compensation to be an employer of choice from a livable wage perspective, but also from an acquisition of skills that the folks in that area could then take to the ups and the Amazon logistics facilities on the street and build careers with what we had, what, who we had given them. And, and I, I have to say that I don’t know why at McKenzie or at fidelity, that was not a more critical part.

I was not more focused on that because those were certainly organizations that had the resources to do more. And I, and I don’t think that I didn’t have that focus of people around me didn’t have that focus. And so seeing us being able to do that, to put our resources, to work above and beyond following corporate strategy and creating sustainable careers for our employees is very meaningful. And it’s something that I look for now, everywhere I go. And I think it strengthens our value proposition. So from a CFO perspective, I think that focus on social impact on, on broadening the impact of the company has allowed the company to attract better talent and to keep the employees engaged and being passionate about not only their individual contributions, but what we’re doing as a company.

And I think that’s, that’s brought great financial value to the company and to the community.

Speaker 0 (16m 41s): Okay, well, that was CFO, Maria Mann reggae of O’Reilly media. Again, Maria’s episode on CFO thought leader will be released on Sunday, the 27th of June. You might be hearing this beforehand, or in fact, you might, it might already be released by the time you hear this, but Brett, what did you make of what Maria shared? She covered a lot of ground.

Speaker 2 (17m 6s): I thought that was a delightful to hear her because either she’s the one that I alluded to earlier on, but, you know, she’s, you know, clearly concerned about diversity and she understands that it’s about diversity of thought. And she goes beyond just simple diversity of thought to talk about, you know, what we used to call the triple bottom line. Like, what is the impact, not only financially, but the social impact, how do we contribute to the communities in which we operate?

And, you know, she emphasizes what we’ve seen again and again and again, and that is many employees are at least if not more concerned about their contribution to society, to community, to the environment, like things beyond the capitalist model of the enterprise. And so it was enjoyable to hear her perspectives on that diversity of thought

Speaker 0 (18m 2s): Is there, when you, when a finance leader also oversees the people function, when they prioritize a little differently, wouldn’t they, their finance hat forced them to look at the world a little differently.

Speaker 2 (18m 19s): I think the, I get to call it dual, but in reality, it’s often a triple role. The CFO is not that uncommon. So the CFO often has accountability around information technology and also around human capital. And that’s not that unusual now, it is unusual in larger organizations. So obviously there’s a transition between when it’s a a hundred person shop and the CFO is, you know, having those, because those are three similar approaches seminar as a similar department.

And that is all three have oversight over all departments, right? So if I’m in sales, I only work in sales, but I interact with operations and so on. If I’m in operations, I only interact with logistics and so on. So, but accounting’s job or finances to look across all departments. Its job is to look across all departments and HR is to look across all departments. So the common thread is you’re looking for someone or looking for a role that has that ability to look across departments in and get the synergies and the opportunity.

So we see that very frequently. What I thought was interesting though, was many CFOs compartmentalize it. They put on their HR hat and they talk human capital. They take that off and put on their it hat. And she’s saying, no, they’re integrated. I need to look beyond the financial measures, the compensation to, you know, that broader need set of the employee, which is, you know, that diversity, the social impact that community, those things, Richard, not dyed or auditable, they’re not part of the CFO’s part portfolio.

They’re not part of its, they’re even not part of, of HRS. And so to me, I thought it was interesting that, you know, she specifically said, she’s got to look beyond the compensation model, which is often a liability to CFO. Those two hats, often conflicts with each other, as CFO. I’m trying to be a steward for the money as HR. I’m trying to be a steward for human capital and sometimes those are in conflict. So her conclusion was we need sustainable careers.

Now, if you double click on sustainability, that’s not about environmental. That is about creating careers that people are sustained. It, that it meets their needs and their needs are all the good stuff that Maslow taught us about and that feeling of contribution to society and so on. So certainly Maria had a very enlightened view about how to do HR type tasks beyond just the financial stuff, beyond the social impact, beyond the diversity, you know, and she’d call mates that in an overall objective that is sustainable careers.

I thought that was brilliant.

Speaker 0 (21m 15s): Well, we recently had CFO, Ian Charles, back on the podcast. Some of you might recall Ian Charles was the former CFO of host analytics, which had gone through a rebranding the last few years, brought in a new management team. Ian Charles is today CFO of flex, which is a supply chain logistics company. We had always enjoyed talking to Ian in the past about talent development and other areas of finance.

And we touched on hiring this time. And again, he was mentioning how he’s learned to avoid mistakes, and we’ve asked them for a past mistake, and this is what he shared. So he was good enough to, to share one with us, but this is Ian Charles CFO of flex.

Speaker 2 (22m 17s): First of all, I think hiring is probably one of the hardest things to do across any function, whether that’s finance or marketing or sales, I can name plenty of times where I thought I was hiring the, the most wonderful employee for the organization. It was going to take us to great Heights and do wonderful things for us. And I couldn’t have been more wrong. And then none of in another situations where I was very pressed to make the hire and, and fill the role, and I was skeptical about the candidate and they turned out to surprise to the upside and actually become wonderful value added employees.

So

Speaker 0 (22m 59s): Why did you modify your interview technique? I mean, what do you think you were getting wrong there you’re going too much on your own instincts and not doing the homework or something.

Speaker 2 (23m 9s): I think, yeah. Part of it was too much on my own. Part of it was a lack of a lack of interviewing. And so I went to a very extensive interview process where for example, my, my typical right-hand is my senior director of FP and a, and left-hand is, is director of accounting or, or controller. And, and I would hire up, I would interview upwards of 35 individuals for the role before I would narrow it down to a field of two to three.

So I guess that’s fear of failure that would a result like that. And how many rounds

Speaker 0 (23m 48s): Are there? You know, they, they’re going through a number of different rounds of interviews. You ask them back, you ask them back again. And then

Speaker 2 (23m 54s): It is at least three, three to four rounds of interviews. And, and of course I would put them on to other rounds surrounds with other members of the team, whether that be the leadership team or other teams within the company. But yes, multiple people, there’s always the mistake of not creating the right balance between the interest of your board, the interest of your management team and the interest of your employees.

And, and if you lean in one direction more than another and not, not create that balance, you have unintended consequences. For example, maximizing your share price is not necessarily aligned between your board or your investors and your employees. The 49, a valuation has become a pretty important function within the office of finance and being able to strike the right balance between what is a valuable instrument and equity instrument for your employees.

And what’s important to your board is, is a difficult challenge. And so as you know, 49 a has been around for quite some time now and no longer can we just arbitrarily put a ratio of the preferred to common value on the strike price. There needs to be a great deal of thought and analysis that goes into it. And, and now it’s presented an entire not cottage industry, but industry in and of itself that, that produces this valuation.

So I think in, you know, in the early days of my career, I, I definitely lean more towards maximizing the share price with the board versus the employees. And I’ve learned from that mistake as well.

Speaker 0 (26m 2s): Some interesting comments from CFO, Ian Charles and Ian’s episode on CFO thought leader was episode 7 0 7. If you haven’t heard it, it’s worth taking a lesson. So Brett hiring some of the mistakes that can be made, and he had some additional thoughts there at the end as well. What, what did you make of what Ian shared?

Speaker 2 (26m 26s): I thought it was a nice extension to what we just heard Maria talk about. Cause Maria talked about just remind you of social impact community, you know, beyond compensation. And he went on to talk about an aspect of that, which is balancing stakeholders, right? And that’s what Rio is. I have different stakeholders. I have the employees of stakeholder, the organizations, the stakeholders, societies, a stakeholder. His example was, you know, that, that balance between, you know, equity versus, you know, what the board’s looking for and, you know, preferred to common share bait price and so on.

And to me, I thought that was an interesting explicit comment on why it’s hard to get those sustainable careers that Maria talked about. And his extension of that was, you know, talking about hiring me the toughest job, the fact that he had unexpected consequences on both sides candidates that he thought would be poor, that turned out to be stellar and vice versa.

And we’ve all had that problem. And we’ve all tried to figure out how to improve the success probability of our hires. And, you know, he’s done it in his world through more interviews and diversity, diversity of thought, he’s saying, I’m going to bring in my director of accounting, I’m going to bring in my director of FP and a I’m going to bring in myself, I’m going to do multiple rounds of interviews. And so it’s vetting against a broader portfolio of need sets then what we used to do.

Speaker 0 (28m 11s): So I have to say, I thought he was speaking rather candidly, when he talked about creating the right balance between the interests of the board, the interests of the management team and the interests of the employees. And in the past, perhaps he had no always weighed the employee’s interests the way it should have been. And, you know, that’s, that’s something I think we’ve been hearing more and more about is this part of the macro to micro continuum that a CFO, Ross, tan Obama Wilde back told us the visibility from, from the macro to the micro, from the board to the employee, needs to be enhanced.

Is there something happening here in terms of the last year and the pandemic and how management seems to be more mindful of employees or how, how do you see it?

Speaker 2 (29m 13s): Yeah, I think there’s a time element, but I think it’s, counter-intuitive my reading is we are in a constrained employee environment. It’s tougher and tougher to get knowledge workers. Now, the good news is COVID has made us aware that it’s our global employee base that we’re pulling from now, the dilemma there as Maria told us is we now have different cultural norms, you know, to behavior this morning, I was dealing with a client that had a location in Germany, in Singapore and in China.

And so we’ve got parties from all three locations in the same meeting, and they all deal with conflict in a completely different way. And as a facilitator, you have to be aware of the cultural norms so that you pull it out of, they get the right people to participate. What Ian is kind of saying is I need to make sure that the peg we get fits into the round and or square hole that we have. So more constraint employees, which means I should take anything that comes along more diverse on candidates, just because of culture and other opportunities.

And the net of that is the net of that is I need to be a little bit more scientific and rigorous in terms of who I get, because I can get people that meet the candidate criteria, but not necessarily the cultural criteria. So that’s why I bring it back to diversity, right? We need to be aware of the diversity in the team and what it takes to maintain a team, especially like my example, where you’ve got, you know, an Asian mindset, a German mindset and a Chinese mindset at the same table.

Speaker 0 (31m 0s): So Brett, the next human capital thought leader I have for you and our listeners is actually a CEO. And I lucked out, I had the opportunity to ask Scott McFarland, CEO of Avalara, a few questions. They had an event and I, I kinda went in the side door to ask them a few talent oriented questions, which he was only too happy to address. He, somebody who spent a lot of time on some of the talent challenges that fast growing companies face and at Avalara, they’re, they’re really not wasting any time and trying to come up with new ideas, how to address them.

And he’s going to share with us a really interesting anecdote. So I wanted to share this with you again, this is Scott McFarland, CEO of Avalara.

Speaker 4 (32m 0s): Let’s talk about inclusiveness this real quickly. Cause I mean, four years ago, we decided that we wanted to have a person that was focused on it in our company. So we went out and hired a, a person that was in charge of, you know, diversity and engagement. How do we improve the engagement in the company? And the greatest thing, you know, when you’re doing interviews with people and you’re sitting there talking to them and they’re talking to you and you, and you as an employer are learning something in that moment.

Those are the greatest interviews that you can have. And I will share with you a story when we were talking, the person that we ultimately hired or her name is Emilia ransom. She’s fantastic. And she said, so she said, well, Scott, tell me about your position on, you know, inclusiveness then. And I, and I went on and I’m like, Hey, listen, I don’t really see any difference, you know, between, you know, people. And I really don’t. And I just, and I was so proud of how I answered the question and, you know, I thought I really nailed it.

And she said, Scott, you got it about 50 ish. She, she actually said, well, your answer wasn’t down here, but it wasn’t up here. You were sort of right in the middle on that answer. And she said, because inclusive inclusiveness is really about recognizing that there are differences and that you are hiring for those differences because those differences make your company a better place. And, and, and, and in that moment, I really realized what our mission was to him, to improving inclusiveness in our company.

We had to recognize it. We had to cherish it. We had to change the way we were thinking that it’s not a big deal because it is a big deal. And in that moment, I think Avalara changed for the, for the, for the better. And the, and the second thing that I would say, oh, you know, that goes along with that is to have an inclusive environment. You just can’t state it. You just can’t say it is this today because you, you have to prepare for it because you have to make your company accepting of all of that.

It has to be an authentic place for diverse people to come and flourish and to be good at. And you just can’t snap a finger. I don’t care how cool you have a CEO. You think you are, you just can’t snap a finger and make that happen. So it’s a journey to make your, your workplace more inclusive, and then you can really start to, to, to develop it, to develop. And, and that’s what I think is the, is the, is the magic that we’ve all learned in the, in, in the best CEOs, you know, are embracing this and trying to, you know, make their cultures fit that so you can be a better company.

Speaker 0 (35m 3s): Great to be able to feature CEO, Scott McFarlane of Avalara. He touched on quite a bit there. I do. I thought that was interesting about how, when doing interviews, executives can learn on behalf of their company. You learn quite a bit from interviewing others who, who are out there looking to be hired and, and might have a different mindset than the company currently does. What, what did you make of what Scott shared with us?

Speaker 2 (35m 40s): Well, so to go sideways for a second has kind of out of character for me, but it would be fun to give it a try what we’ve got several clients who actually use interviews as a job interviews as a way to learn about the market. So you S you, you pointed out that Scott learned about inclusiveness through that one example he gave us, but it turns out a great interview process tells you an awful lot about the overall market, where that person has come from and where they’ve worked, but also even other people they’ve interviewed with.

And so many of our clients will sort out what they think the job requirements are interview four or five candidates, and then update their job requirements. Because in, in imagine if Scott had done that, if Scott had done that after he interviewed this, this individual, he talks about, he would have gone back and said, okay, we need to have more inclusiveness. We need to be more specific about the diversity of what we’re looking for.

So the interview process is actually a learning process, and that is an unexpected opportunity. Most people think interviews are about interrogating that poor person at the other end of the conversation. And it’s a, you know, it’s a quiz. I mean, literally people like McKinsey take people through quizzes. What if it wasn’t? What if, instead of it being a quiz where you’re smarter than the other person you’re asking him skill testing questions, it was the opposite. What if you assume the person you’re interviewing knew more than you?

What if you took that opportunity to learn as opposed to teach or quiz? Interesting. And that’s for me where Scott’s aha moment was, he said, gosh, this is interesting. This has caused me to change my thinking. And possibly even if he didn’t hire that person that would have caused, but what’s interesting here is because that person changed his thinking. She was hired, right. He had the aha moment. It’s like the attendance he went, oh my God, that is exactly the diverse thinking I need on my table, around my table and providing me with advice and insights.

Speaker 0 (37m 54s): He goes on, he talks about how he didn’t answer her question. He got it half. Right. I suppose as the way he expressed it.

Speaker 2 (38m 4s): Yeah. I thought it was interesting. I could have heard it wrong, but how I heard it was basically this candidate that is using example of asked him a question. He flailed his way through the answer and she scored how he did exactly. I thought that was interesting because that’s effectively turning the table on him. He thought he was interviewing her, or it turns out she was interviewing him. And I, again, it’s, what’s that expression, that fives higher force it’s higher tens.

Right. Scott, you know, saw that she was adding stuff to the

Speaker 5 (38m 43s): Message. Wasn’t he indicating though that

Speaker 0 (38m 47s): She was, she scored him, but she only gave him, you know, a middle term grade, because he wasn’t understanding the value, the true value of inclusiveness. And I think that was the question. And the true value is that the backgrounds of individuals in the places they come from enrich a company, if I’ve expressed it correctly, do you share his way of thinking? Do you buy that?

Speaker 2 (39m 15s): Yeah, I, I do buy it. I mean, and I’m going to get my soap box here for a second in my background is from the UK. And now here in Canada and in the UK, like for 20 years on the personalities that I’ve hired on, the news are very diverse. You know, we’ve got people who look Chinese and, and you know, different racial origins, but they all have a British accent. And I see the same thing happening here in Canada. Now that’s not diversity. They, they, they have lived their entire lives in the UK or their entire lives in Canada.

And they share our values and, and our perspectives. And what’s interesting about the four controllers and CFOs should control is, and the CEO we talked about here is they’ve broadened their horizon to understand that it’s about diversity of thought, right? We’re in the knowledge working business, right? Our friend Drucker set that out back in the fifties. Well, we need to look at people from diversity of knowledge, not diversity of, of what they look like.

And I know I’m hammering it. And we talked about this last time, but all four of these people have come to their aha moments and recognize that’s what adds richness to how we work. It doesn’t add conflict. It doesn’t add difficulty. It adds a creative gaps and spaces and opportunities for us to find ways to move forward that are far faster than you can do when you get a whole bunch of people that agree with you.

What does that expression? You know, if you and I agree with each other all the time, we don’t need one of us. Well,

Speaker 0 (40m 53s): That’ll be a nice way to, to end this discussion or, or put a fine point on it for us. I’m afraid, however, we’re out of time.

Speaker 2 (41m 2s): Awesome. That was good. Take the rest of the day off.

Speaker 0 (41m 4s): I’m afraid that’s not in the, in the plan in the cards, but we thank you for joining us. Brett,

Speaker 2 (41m 11s): This has been fun, Jack. See you next time. Bye

Speaker 0 (41m 14s): For workplace champions. This is Jack Sweeney. Thank you for listening.

Hi, it’s Jack. If you haven’t yet subscribed to workplace, you’ll find us on apple podcast. Or if you’re an Android user, check us out on Spotify. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend.

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